Make Imposter Syndrome Your Superpower

Listen Time: 43 Minutes

“In 2018 there were 25 women leading Fortune 500 companies – and 25 men named John.“

Jen Coken

Did you know that 70% of employees walk into work every day feeling like they don’t belong? This is especially true of professional women. After all, “in 2018 there were 25 women leading Fortune 500 companies – and 25 men named John.”

That statistic makes the glass ceiling look like concrete, doesn’t it? 

This feeling of non-belonging is called Imposter Syndrome. As a consequence, most of us are unable to bring our whole selves to work. Instead, we’re trapped in our own insecurities. For women, this may take the form of adopting more “masculine” traits in communication, self-presentation, and leadership styles.

And that, according to executive leadership coach Jen Coken, is a huge loss for everyone.

Instead, Jen insists that we can bring our whole self to both work and play by employing feminine and masculine traits (and everything in between). Doing so can help us lead authentically in a way that keeps us–and those around us–thriving and whole. One of the ways she helps others do this is by adopting the P.O.W.E.R code – Pursue the facts, Own your stories, Witness your thoughts, Embrace a new choice, and Reflect on your growth.

Jen’s coaching and work helping others cope with imposter syndrome has been recognized by ABC, MSNBC, TEDx, and more. Her lighthearted, yet data-driven approach can help you master self-doubts, reclaim your presence of mind, and turn your insecurities into assets, no matter where you are in your career or life.

Listen in to Jen’s conversation with host Courtney Tyson to discover how to lead authentically and leave imposter syndrome behind forever. Or, join their chat on YouTube and tell us what you found most valuable! 

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About Jen Coken

Jen Coken is an internationally acclaimed comedian, coach, speaker, and Imposter Syndrome expert. She is the No B.S. Coach for irreverent, mission-driven women executives in STEM who crave the audacity to be themselves, want to own the agency of their position, and have confidence in the direction they are headed. Fortune 1000 CEOs to seven-figure founders trust Jen to shake things up with no apologies, no limits, and all the laughs.

Episode Transcript

Courtney

Hi everyone and welcome to episode 24 of Smart Route. I’m your host and strategic partnership manager at CallTrackingMetrics Courtney Tyson, thank you for listening in.

As you should know, March is women’s history month which celebrates the vital role women play in american history and society as a whole and in the spirit of celebrating women. We have invited executive leadership coach Jen Cokin to talk to us more about the obstacles women facing their journeys to break glass ceilings. How to overcome them embrace life and lead as our authentic selves. We are so excited to chat with you today. Jen thank you for being here.

Jen Coken

Oh my gosh I’m excited to be here with you. Thanks for inviting me.

Courtney

So this is gonna be fun I’m I’m looking forward to ah learning some new things and building up my confidence along the way. So before we get started I and to share a little bit about you with our audience Jen works with women in power positions who don’t feel so powerful anymore. , she shatters their self-doubts so they can learn to love themselves, embrace their genius and own their success. She has been recognized by Abc Msnbc and Tedx. She’s an international peak performance coach a fortune 500 speaker impostor syndrome expert and a recovering standup comedian. Fortune 500 clients a 7 figure as ceos trust jen to shake things up with no apologies. No limits and no laughs. So with that said, yes with that said we’re gonna have fun!

Jen Coken

We have to have fun. Okay.

Courtney

Those were kind of your bio words but Jen tell us little more about yourself and your own words and what led you to begin your business.

Jen Coken

I was born in a small white house. No kidding kidding kidding no you know I have been coaching people for over twenty five years and  excuse me about seven years ago ah began to notice that. Women who were in male dominated industries where I had spent most of my career in politics in , at the energy industry places like that were facing the same kinds of dilemmas that I did and I was I am really committed to empowering them. To show up as themselves and one of the turning points for me was I was a keynote speaker for the society of women engineers in Denver and I was talking to some of the young women there and they were telling me these stories Courtney about how they didn’t wear makeup to work and they never dressed up because their male counterparts would ask them if either they had a date. And then would grow them about that or ask them if they were going for an interview and I thought that is so inappropriate so it you know it made them change who they were and I said enough and you know I always love this statistic which is in 2018 there were 25 women who were leading fortune 500 companies and 23 men named John yeah, my commitment and goal is to give women the confidence to show up as their entire self at work that includes embracing their femininity as well as the masculine side of getting things done and feeling like they can be themselves because the more you rise up the corporate ladder you see fewer and fewer people. Who look like you and so you don’t have the same kinds of cues and so you know unfortunately and I learn this the hard way too. Is we begin to lead like men in a lot of ways now I am not you know I Love Guys. It’s not that’s not the issue for me. But I think when we start being some of those ways of being that are not productive like being arrogant or being full of ourselves. That’s not who we are. 

That’s not who the guys are that are being that way either. Everybody has masculine and Feminine. We need that masculine drive to get things done. But I’m committed that women also embrace their feminine side of the interdependence of the creating community and Gosh knows we need it now with the pandemic and hybrid work environments and people just being disconnected. No longer. do We have those opportunities to kind of say hey I’m going to pop by your cubicle and say hi or. You know the sort of just general chitchat and so it’s a way for us to feel more comfortable at work If. We’re comfortable with who we are. We can bring our whole selves to work then we’re also creating that environment for the people around us and the people who report to us and I just feel really strongly about that. That’s where it all came from.

Courtney

I Love that you’ve been able to take your your career but your life experiences and build and you’re obviously you’re so passionate about helping women but the fact they’ve been able to build a business on helping women through your experiences and what you’ve learned is just it’s really amazing and I’m interested to know through your experience working as a woman and in different industries and working with women in different industries and you know women from different walks of life too. Do you see different experiences for female leaders across different industries or from women across different generations, perhaps?

Jen Coken

That’s an interesting question I feel like I have 3 answers one is human being and so you could call it a human experience. Everybody has a han experience of questioning their leadership wondering if they’re going to fit in.

Courtney

Ah.

Jen Coken

Ah, do they have what it takes men and women question it differently and I think I don’t see differences across industries but generations. Yes I do feel like the executives that I usually coach because they’re at that level are in their 40 s and 50 s or or older I’m 58 and so they’re at a time in their lives when they’re thinking about transitioning out of work and what’s the next step. Yes, you could call that retirement but each 1 of us wants to leave the planet feeling like we made a difference and we don’t ever take time to think that through or really. Take time to steepen. What is my vision and what’s the difference I want to make and so I think quite honestly women who are in their 20 s and 30s the which generation is that I never get this right? it’s not gen x it’s millennials okay so I feel like your and is much more purpose focused.

Courtney

I’m a millennial. Yeah yeah.

Jen Coken

And , how am I giving back and what’s my impact on the world then my generation ever was or even if I’m Gen x you know the baby boomers know gen x not as much I mean I also was a grassroots activist for 30 years so I have that background of of making a difference and I think. Women in their twenties and 30s are already thinking about the impact they want to make and I think that can prove to be frustrating if they can’t be themselves at work because there’s a lot of conversation around authenticity. What the heck does that mean whole other conversation. We could have. And then I feel like women in my generation and above or 40 s and 50 s and higher were coming to that place sometimes as a result of thinking about transitioning out of our current job into say a consultancy role or no longer wanting to work. Because we’re done working kind of thing ah or it could be people call it a midlife crisis I call it a soul life crisis. It’s this moment where around 42 to 49 if you are not fulfilling the purpose. You came to fulfill. Your soul will come knocking at the door and keep pointing you in different directions and trying to show you the way for you to feel complete. This is my personal philosophy before you exit this physical existence.

Courtney

I Love that.

Jen Coken

And if you don’t learn that this time Guess what you get an opportunity next time you incarnate So woohoo.

Courtney

Love it. That’s great. So really, it’s an interesting philosophy. It is.

Jen Coken

Yeah I’ve had it for a long time and a lot of it came about from ah my mom passing away from ovarian cancer back in 2011 she was misdiagnosed for a year and when she was finally diagnosed. It was stage 4 but she lived five years one month and eight days and during that five year cycle I got really interested in death and the afterlife and what happens and began questioning a lot of things and that’s kind of where I ended up that we’re all here to fulfill a purpose that we choose the life that we incarnate into.

Courtney

Whoa. 

Jen Coken

To learn particular lessons that our soul wants us to learn.

Courtney

 I Love that It’s also something Interesting. Interesting to think about too and I’m sorry to hear about your mother. But , you know I was hanging out with my best friends this weekend who I’ve met along my career journey and something that we had been talking about was as you know be. Female  biology and how you know we have not been researched the way maybe men have been and so dealing with medical issues as a woman is a little different and sometimes look more complex than maybe issues that men deal with so it’s interesting to think just you know how society as a whole has always kind of. Looked at masculine versus feminine and and you know the attention that we kind of get in a sort of way because of the role we play in Society. So.

Jen Coken

Well, it’s not even that it hasn’t been researched as most studies are based on men between the ages of 18 and 29 period end of a story. They don’t take into account women because we weren’t seen as you know other than being owned. We’re gonna get down a rabbit hole here. 

But given the fact that we didn’t get the chance for the right to vote till the 20 s I mean the equal rights Amendment hasn’t even passed yet so you know and thank god quite honestly for the met too movement which kind of woke people up but didn’t wake people up enough and we can’t get complacent and we’ve got to continue to not just speak our truth but speak our value and take a stand for ourselves because one of the things that happens to women in the workplace is we get labeled. We get labeled as the B word we get labeled as aggressive. We get labeled and women of color get labeled even worse than white women. So and if men were were demonstrating or using those same kind of types of of behaviors they would have been told they are great leaders and they’re being effective and they’re being Ah, they’re taking charge. So. It’s interesting because I always tell my potential clients and the clients I work with either love me or hate me because one you’re either going to cry or laugh every call hopefully or laughing more than crying because I help people embrace the ridiculousness of life because we make up so many stories but I’m also very Direct. Have a B s meter a mile long and I will say something and it’s not oh you know I’m learning in my older my wiser years I’m not going to say in my old age because I don’t feel old but in my wiser years to be more diplomatic but I used to be very very blunt. 

And you know I made mistakes. It doesn’t mean you can’t be direct, sometimes direct is what you need and who you need to be.

14:57.60

Courtney

Right? Yeah sure I agree I agree.  I think sometimes that’s the best way to get the message Across. Don’t bring your emotions into it right? Being direct is best. you know you talked a little bit about the women’s suffrage movement and you know eventually us getting the right to vote right? Thinking about how that kind of ties into impostor syndrome and how you know we fought so hard for the right to vote. But yet, we’re still being told you shouldn’t be voting if you shouldn’t have the right to vote right? So of course that kind of puts in this I think for women puts us in this mindset of well like and then imposter syndrome right? like should I be voting like it kind of could almost be taken back to to those days right? So That’s maybe when imposter syndrome started who knows but let’s talk about imposter Syndrome a little bit. , you know you’ve mentioned it a couple times I know you’re an expert in this. Let’s talk about your unique take on imposter syndrome. 

How do you define it and what led you to framing it in the way that you do, Jen?

Jen Coken

Yeah I’d love to. Imposter syndrome has been around as human beings have roamed the planet and how come it’s called imposter syndrome is back in the 70 s 2 researchers were doing a study. Of women in a phd program recognizing that women had they thought at the time women had a higher rate of feeling like a fraud and feeling like they didn’t belong studies now show and as recently as two years ago that 70% of workers like people in the workplace experience not belonging, questioning and doubting themselves etc so imposter syndrome isn’t even a syndrome because it’s not a medical diagnosis. At the time those researchers coined the phrase imposter phenomenon meaning it’s phenomenological meaning it’s as lived as experienced. So it’s an experience of feeling like a fraud or feeling like you’re not an expert. So why do I say it’s been around as long as human beings have been around because every human has a brain if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be here. The brain’s job is to predict danger to predict threats, now that it used to be .

Ah, physical threats now it’s psychological threats. So the brain is constantly interpreting data and attempting to compartmentalize to make the human brain more comfortable. For example, ah, you know I was in Boston last week and it actually freakishly snowed and I didn’t have the right shoes with me. I go to step outside and immediately I’m scared I’m walking gingerly because I’ve you know we’ve all if you’ve lived in any snowy area. You’ve slipped on the ice at least 1 time and so the brain was taking in that information and saying whoa. Be careful. So the brain’s constantly doing that and the average brain has 50 to 60000 thoughts a day 85% are negative 95% are repetitive so when we’re in a situation. Let’s say at work and our boss calls on us or we have to do a presentation.

That we haven’t done before or perhaps we’ve done the presentation but it’s to a new group. Perhaps we’re doing a presentation for a potential client immediately. The brain’s going to go ah danger and you’re going to have the experience as lived. It’s actually the amygdala. Which governs the fight flight and freeze aspect of the han brain which is also known as the reptilian brain because that’s the thing that’s kept us alive the moment the amygdala gets triggered the prefrontal cortex or the logical reasoning goes down the more your your cortisol levels go up the reasoning. Messages go down and it’s the inverse relationship too. So the moment that happens you’re immediately wanting to defend or understand how can I protect myself and that’s what ah most people most coaches if you go on the internet you’ll find. Ah, last count I think was three point four million tips, tools and tricks for how to overcome imposter syndrome and I tell people you can’t you can. There’s one point where you do it. But you’re dead and then they bury you put dirt on you and go to Dennys and talk to you, talk about you because that’s what people do after you’re dead. They talk about you hopefully right.

Courtney

Sure right? Both in a good way.

Jen Coken

So you know? So if you’re trying to overcome something. Okay, the thing you’re trying to come over stays stuck. So if I’m hiking in Colorado and I come across a big boulder I’m hiking in Virginia there’s a couple trails where there are huge boulders you have to scramble over. I have to go over it or around it. That thing is going to stay stuck so the more you try to manage your perfectionism the more you try to manage those thoughts the more stuck they’re going to get what you resist persists. So the way that I approach this is okay. We know everybody has imposter syndrome.

And by the way if you don’t have it. You’re not playing a big enough game because it only gets triggered when you are confronted or stretching yourself if you’re not stretching yourself. You don’t have to worry about it if you want to sit on the couch and watch Love Island and eat chocolate covered cherries. You won’t have imposter syndrome. But if you’re about to do a Tedx talk or you’re about to ask for a promotion or you’re new to a job or you want to speak up in a meeting where it hasn’t felt like comfortable territory before that’s going to come up.

So what I do with my clients is I have a very specific process because my philosophy has been that everybody’s imposter syndrome comes back to maybe 3, potentially 5.

Jen Coken

Incidents that happened to them are what I call defining moments when they were a kid usually sometime between the ages of 4 and 12 and when we’re able to identify because the moment the brain experiences some emotion that’s unwanted or a situation that’s unwanted, shame and embarrassment follow. It’s going to try to protect you because it thinks it’s a matter of life or death. It’s not a matter of life or death. But the brain doesn’t know any different So it’s going to want to protect you when we can identify and unlock that brain pattern all of a sudden something else becomes possible.

Because you’re no longer an upset 6 year old in a 34 year old body driving the bus called your life. You’re like oh that was my upset 6 year old. I’ll give you a really good example. I have a client she is a super successful former client and very driven but she came to me because she said.

Doesn’t matter how successful I am, I’m never satisfied and she was making herself crazy and making herself sick and what we got so interesting because it’s often either these defining moments are your relationship to Authority or your experience of belonging in a group. So with her. It belonged to a group. She went to a cousin’s house and ah the cousin had some clothes she was giving away and it was all name brand clothes and she picked up a pair of white jeans and she said oh and her aunt said oh sweetie you’re too big to fit into those and in that moment she experienced shame and embarrassment.

Some people might have said okay put him back and skulked away and maybe they had a different story that they made up she was like I’m going to show you went in the bedroom like we used to back then and lay down on the bed and you slide him up and take a hanger in the zipper because there was no spandex back then you. You know our own phar banks but we’re in Levi’s right and what she realized is she said I’m going to show you and how that shows up and as an adult she’s very driven. The problem is she doesn’t have a choice about being driven so it was zapping her health.

It was zapping her mental space. It was just crushing her ability to dream big because she felt like she couldn’t keep up at that pace once we identified that brain pattern and we unlocked it now. She’s able to witness when that same thought comes up. When those same ah because the reason imposter phenomenon is said like that is you are experiencing the butterflies in your stomach or the pit in your stomach or the sweaty palms are armpit so the physical sensations remain the mood remains of being scared or being angry. Whatever way the brain has designed for you to deal with that defining moment. So she’s now in the driver’s seat and she can choose to be driven. The beautiful thing about that story is do you know she had never owned a pair of white jeans since that time she went out she went out two days later

She bought the white jeans. She rocked the heck out of them and showed me pictures and then did a whole photo shoot and now those jeans are all over her website because she’s owning all of herself and who she is all from 1 ant saying oh honey.

You’re too big to put those on and the brain makes up stories and so the work with clients is separating fact from fiction so you can be a witness, an impartial observer of those automatic responses and when we are able to be an impartial observer. We’re present.

When we’re present. We have presence when we have presence we have presence of what mind to think clearly because the moment you have that amygdala hijack where you experience imposter syndrome simply take 5 deep breaths.

Going to slow your heart rate down and your reasoning mind will level up so you have presence of mind, you have presence of body to slow your heart rate down and just get a hold of yourself presence of soul to speak your truth and presence of spirit to work through your spirit god Bob your dog. Whatever you want to call it That’s what I happen to call it.

Courtney

Love it. That’s ah the great story but like just a great tip. Overall like it’s great to dig in and really think about what it is. That’s putting you in this insecure state. That’s causing you to subconsciously act or think a certain way about yourself, but just the tip of, You know, sitting back in deep breaths right? Like I tell my daughter that all the time when she’s frustrated deep breaths right? But just thinking about how that can help in the moment even just me thinking about you know how I prepare for these episodes and recording and the fact that before you hit the play button I do have a little bit of imposter syndrome too right? 

Courtney

So I Love the deep breath tip are there any other small tips like that Jen that we could use kind of throughout our days?

Jen Coken

Yeah, yeah I would say the deep breaths are great when you find your undies in a bunch, take a minute and grab a piece of paper and write out what’s bothering you This could be at work. This could be at home.

Write it all out. They did this and they said that and they didn’t ask me their thing and I spoke up and nobody paid attention and then Kevin spoke up and everybody paid attention Kevin what are you doing you know once you write out whose fault it is and why it’s their fault and how unlucky you are you know, a lot of people.

And don’t do it on a computer or phone journal why because using pen and paper accesses a different part of your brain. So if you don’t like journaling suck it up, put a timer on for 2 minutes, just give yourself 2 minutes so the brain knows okay, there’s an end to this. Write it out at the end of that time when the time is up or when you’re done. Go back and circle the facts you will find. There are few very very few that one tip alone allows people to return to homeostasis where they can think clearly now the next step after doing that is ask yourself huh. What else does this remind me of is they’re an earlier similar experience. So if you find yourself remember we talked about just a little bit ago about what your purpose is and if you don’t learn if you’re not living true to your purpose. You’ll keep getting opportunities to do so. So if you keep getting taken out. By the same thing over and over again, meaning your you don’t feel empowered you feel disempowered. That’s what I mean by taking out I don’t like me like the mafia you know it’s going to come? So if you feel disempowered at any moment. Do that story writing and journaling.

Circle the facts then ask yourself is there something similar that happened to me earlier either with the same situation. So it could be your agency or your relationship to authority. So maybe it’s early or similar with someone else in authority or maybe it’s an earlier similar group. Or maybe it’s early or similar feeling like you don’t fit in until you can get back to the earliest, most similar incident and then you can see where it all started from and again, ask yourself? Okay, what story did I make up because there is a decision you take at the moment. The amygdala is confronted. And you have that experience of unwanted emotions, the origin story, the defining moment story. The brain makes up something that’s going to make you successful. That’s why I say make imposter syndrome your superpower if you decided you had to be a perfectionist so that you were no longer embarrassed. By your friends for getting a c when they all got a’s likely and I’m saying this because it’s true for 1 of my clients that has allowed you to sort a great heights and be really successful, but there’s no joy in being and a perfectionist because you’re not at choice you’re at the effect. Of something. It’s like the default way is being a perfectionist. There’s times we need to be perfectionists. You know for the podcast you want to be prepped you want to have that perfectionist tendency of getting the right questions to me and doing the precall and all the things that you did having the technology right? kind of makes sense. You don’t want to fly by the seat of your pants right.

But then there’s the ah your daughter and putting her toys away. Maybe sometimes you can leave them out for an extra day and you don’t. Everything doesn’t have to be cleaned up just so I’m talking to myself too by the way.

Courtney

That’s literally exactly what I was thinking though as you were saying that because I am the perfectionist in that you know before I go to bed every night my house needs to be spotless and I’m like but why is it because I think my a friend is going to come over and they’re going to judge me for the pile of toys on the floor or the sink about the dishes in my sink. Probably not. They’re not going to care. They’re coming to see me and my daughter right? So little things like that I need to hear right? We all need to hear to be able to be our best selves. So.

Jen Coken

Know we do? Yeah ah tell a little funny side story when I was a kiddo. My grandmother lived with us and she taught me how to make my bed I think when I was 5 or 6 and I was told every morning to make my bed so I always made my bed. Always made my bed and there’s that whole leadership book about like make your bed first or something and deprogram myself for a full month I never made my bed. At first I was horrified you know about it.

Courtney

Yes.

Jen Coken

But it was sort, of you know, sort of breaking myself of that automatic habit because I wanted it to be a choice. Some days I do someday, most days I do some days I don’t and that’s okay, you know.

Courtney

I like the thought of of journaling too. I come from a family who likes to journal but I am personally not a Journaler even though I should be , my next question for you Jen is gonna be more about truth. 

Jen Coken

No, there should be no shitting on yourself.

Courtney

I think I can start like I’m going to start it right? So I think that Journaling is is great too because you know reading back on your thoughts I think too helps you to kind of look at what you’re good at  and that’s my next question for you is like how can as women we be better at at owning the things that we’re good at without kind of having that you know I’m the best , kind of that conceited mentality right? yeah.

Jen Coken

Yeah I love this question because I actually run a Facebook group that you know anybody can join called make imposter syndrome your superpower and I’m always trying to egg people on like tell me what’s going on tell me what’s going on because I want to leave coaching that’s helpful for them right. And so there was a number of people in the same month where you know I always asked the question. What makes you want to join the group and to ah to a person I know I keep getting promoted and I don’t know why I keep getting offered these other positions and I don’t know why and I’m afraid I’m going to let people down. So one of the  ideas that I came up with and this is also why I love coaching and why I think of myself as your guide on the side because I’m in partnership with the people I coach and together. 

You’re the one who actually has the answers. I’m going to ask questions to help you unlock them. But then together we’re going to figure out. How to create practices that work for you so in going back and forth over Facebook messenger with this woman I said oh I said what if you came from curiosity and said to your bosses hey as I’m prepping for 2023 I’m really committed to leveling up what I’m good at. Because I want to really hone in on my natural talents and I’m wondering if you can share with me. What do you think are my top 3 natural talents because we are so bad with ourselves because of that internal.

Thinking of the negativity and the repetition of our internal dialogue the things we say to ourselves we would never say to 1 of our best friends or our mom or our husband or we wouldn’t we wouldn’t are you kidding me right. So I think it’s helpful to look outside yourself which can feel awkward so that’s why I suggested in the realm of bettering yourself I’m really interested this year in playing up my strengths and playing up my natural talents. What do you think. What do you think the thing I’m most talented at or what do you think? The 3 things are that really work that you’d like to see me get even more proficient in and then you can ask the other side of the question is anything in my leadership you think is missing that if it were there. It would make a difference to any suggestions you have. People love helping each other and in that way that’s giving you the opportunity to be in partnership and you can ask it of your coworkers. You could ask it of your significant other, you could ask it of your daughter. What do you think? Mommy’s good at here’s what I think you’re good at. What else? Do you think mommy could be good at giving me more popsicles.

Courtney

Me here.

Jen Coken

Yeah, mommy is not going to get any better at that. That’s we’re not focusing on that skill this year you know? So I think that’s one way the other piece is to spend time celebrating your wins.

I actually have a whole workbook that I design for my clients called celebrate your wins. It’s an ebook people can download and I can give it to them to put in the show notes because the brain is so focused on the negative when it comes to the end of the year everyone’s like ah performance appraisals you know rarely and I’m sure your company’s different.

Courtney

That would be great.

Jen Coken

I tell people nobody should be getting news at the end of the year that you haven’t been talking to them about throughout the whole year, be doing weekly one- on-ones with your team, monthly touch bases, quarterly reviews etc. So by the end of the year you know what you need to work on and what worked and what didn’t and your boss is just sitting there listening and going. Yeah, you’re right. Beautiful, okay, good next thing because we focus on the negative. Usually we ruminate about what isn’t working, what didn’t work, how we made a mistake, we shouldn’t have said this, we shouldn’t have said that. 

Stop it. Instead ask yourself what worked not just from the perspective of Did I achieve my goal because often that’s our scale. I said I would do that. I didn’t do it I suck . I’m a failure. No you grew along the way you might not have achieved that goal. 

But how did you grow on your way to getting there? Where did you have more fun and where did you develop new relationships? What new skills did you develop to get to where you are today.

Jen Coken

That gives you the opportunity to reflect on your own strengths and natural talents and start building up a library where you don’t have to depend on other people because then it’s okay to rinse and repeat. Let me use that success strategy again because why it worked before. So let me do it again.

And that doesn’t have to be at the end of the year. You could do a monthly retrospective, a weekly retrospective of what went well this week, why did it go well start there versus what didn’t go well.

Courtney

Sure. Okay I love that and I do try to do a good job of asking others for feedback right? but instead of asking for feedback I think it’s being more intentional as you said you know.

Asking directly. What do you think I’m good at so I’m definitely going to take that back. That’s a great takeaway Jen , let’s talk a little bit too about just uncertainty. Obviously there’s been a lot of uncertainty since Covid and in the workplace right? What do women need to do to be successful in this new and changing environment?

Jen Coken

You know I always think about this as the future. The future of leadership is being a multidimensional leader and what I mean by that is as you said Covid was the great. You didn’t say this but I’ll say you said it Covid was the great equalizer and having everybody realize life’s uncertain across the board. 

Whatever socioeconomic ah realm you fell into it became more and more apparent that life’s uncertain because you didn’t know who was going to get hit with covid and who wasn’t and locked down and the whole thing. That’s been that way all along life’s always been uncertain, but most of us walk around as if there’s a certainty and a predictable outcome now at least before covid life was uncertain but it was a bit of a predictable supply chain. You could. You know, do sales forecasts right? You could do sales metrics on your calls of what you can predict from one quarter to the next one year over the next particular industries or clients. My guess is that it shifted a lot after covid so it’s no longer predictable. So now you have uncertainty plus unpredictability. What you have left the 1 hand you have agency over is yourself and your ability to respond to any moment of uncertainty and unpredictability. That’s what I call personal response and your ability to respond. So I think as women, it’s imperative that we use the exact same tools that I mentioned earlier when we were talking about imposter syndrome of taking the deep breaths being present separating fact from fiction and being able to choose how I want to respond in any given situation I call it cracking the POWER code. 

POWER is an acronym that stands for Pursue the facts, Own your stories, Witness your thoughts, Embrace a new choice, and Reflect and Repeat. We have a choice in any given situation Now if you get upset about something and imposter syndrome’s rearing its ugly head or any place where your amygdala gets hijacked.. There’s feelings. There’s thoughts. There’s responses right? There’s circumstances. So when you are able to be present then you can be at choice. And that I think is not just for women. It’s for men. It’s for kids. It’s for everybody these days.

Courtney

Thanks Jen I would love it if we can get the link that ebooks that are listeners can read more into the paper code and your framework there. But I know you work a lot with women in leadership roles and I’d love to hear if you have any advice for women who maybe aren’t yet in a leadership role but would like to get there one day.

Jen Coken

Yeah, you know it’s an interesting question these days because there’s an I don’t know if this piece is true. So you tell me but you might have seen more of this than I have. It seems like what I’ve been hearing is like the dirt on the street is Millennials or others feel like they should be elevated to leadership positions quicker or sooner without having done the work and I don’t know if that’s a trend if that’s the truth or not, you know you can’t believe everything you read I think what’s important to get to a leadership role is number 1 know what? you’re good at it.

Courtney

Sure.

Jen Coken

I always use the assessment Clifton strengths and by the way it’s not bad to think you should get that promotion but also understand you’re speaking into an environment where it used to be put your time in and then you get the promotion. 

And to recognize it’s not just about knowledge. It’s also about experience because people in leadership now, most people are elevated to leadership positions with no training and when they get to those leadership positions truly people learn how to lead on the job through those experiences. You can start leading now by volunteering anywhere where you can lead a group to understand leadership qualities. You can listen a podcast like this and other leadership podcasts read books on it but also know what you’re good at and I was about to say the assessment that I use with my clients is clifton strengths. Because it’s a measure of natural talent and it gives you an insight into what you’re good at as well as how to demonstrate what you’re good at and how to apply what you’re good at at work and people who work within their strengths are 6 times more likely to love their job and talk about it. They’re 8 % more productive and their engagement goes up by 23% on the job when you have companies that are managing people from a strengths-based culture. So it’s important for you to know your talents and I say strengths. There’s a lot of good assessments out there Myers-briggs disc et cetera. But I feel like those are more personality with strengths. It’s an assessment of natural talent. I believe it’s more professional and it gives people an opportunity to also articulate their value. So when you go ask for that new raise, the new job, or the promotion.

You can better articulate your value. That’s number one: do the assessment number 2 you don’t have to wait to have every single thing every single all 12 requirements that are put into a job listing to apply for a job. Do it anyway. Most men if there’s 12 things on a list if they have 2 of them. They’re like ah I’m perfect I’m going to apply. Most women wait so we have 11.7397 4 you don’t need to do that if you don’t think you have all the experience that the job needs. You can also articulate that in the interview and state how you’re planning to learn I will never forget Courtney I wasliving in Colorado I was interviewing for a job to spearhead a company called the  the western clean energy campaign and my job was going to be to stop 27 cold proposed coal-fire power plants from being built in the interior west which we did by the way and 2 of the board members basically said to me I had never worked in this particular energy sector before I didn’t even know that when you turn on the lights the electricity was powered by coal I mean and when I look at that and retrospect said think to myself duh of course, but back then just what you know the the synapses weren’t connected right? The neurons weren’t connected and they were.

Very much digging into me. You don’t have any experience in this field. What makes you think you can do it? I said look I said I can learn on the job about the industry and I’ve got you and everyone else on the board who are experts and everybody else at the company. What you can’t learn on the job is how to organize and I’ve been organizing for 25 years that is.

On the job I have lived and so I don’t see any problem with this at all and they hired me so you have to know what you’re good at. You want to know how to articulate it and you want to speak with confidence. What I always tell people is just smile and nod your head. Yeah, and so what I’d like is a $50,000 raise and shut up.

Courtney

Right? Love it. Almost like that fake it until you make it. You know right? Is that everyone seems to use it? So that’s great. So we talked a lot about you know, being present separating fact from fiction, talked a lot about journaling to make sure that you’re you know.

Jen Coken

Yep yep, exactly.

Courtney

I Built to identify those facts maybe into what you’re good at talk a lot about just being able to recognize what it is from your past that’s causing you to maybe have this imposter Mindset. We even talked about little things like deep breaths you know throughout your day to overcome the moments in which you’re getting a little anxious maybe or feeling like an imposter. This has all been really great stuff, Jen, I Know you have a ton of wonderful resources for our listeners to tap into, especially the Ebook talks about POWER code. So there is anything else that you’d like to plug any other resources that our listeners can tap into.

Jen Coken

Yeah I would say surround yourself with other people who are interested in being leaders. What often happens when we’re stuck is we wind up going to our friends to talk about stuff. And they wind up going. Yeah, you’re right? That’s awful instead of somebody saying actually you’re being a jerk. The best friends you can have are the people who are going to call you on your nonsense and have you be greater than your nonsense. That’s key to having a vision.

For your life, your leadership and your legacy that is bigger than the nonsense between your ears because you and I know and everybody listening knows that the space between our ears is a dangerous neighborhood. You do not want to go there alone. You will need lots of help there.

So surround yourself with leaders and I offer a monthly masterclass. I’m going to make sure it’s the right date. I’m going to say it’s the third Thursday of the month where you can come in and potentially there’s at least 3 people who get in the hot seat for me to coach. And it’s an opportunity for you to be with other like minded people who are either already leaders or interested in being leaders and if you don’t can’t make that talk to your employee resource group at work and set up a mastermind set up at a women’s employee resource group I know you have 1 at your company which is incredible.

Those are really important surround yourself with the right people.

Courtney

And don’t be afraid to ask your leadership what you’re good at what your talents are that’s great. Jen this has been incredibly insightful and motivating the tips you’ve shared are just so invaluable to building that mindset for success and I think everyone needs old Jen in their life right? This is great. So just like thank you again for being here and just thanks for all the work you do to help women elevate themselves leave lead with confidence and achieve you know, success by bringing their authentic selves to work every day. You’re obviously an incredible leader and I’m very thankful to have this opportunity to sit down with you. So thanks again.

Jen Coken

Thank you for your really probing, can I guess I can say that word like very insightful and probing questions because it had me thinking about how to articulate some of the answers. I Appreciate all the perfectionism that you brought to the podcast.

Courtney

Ah, you’re welcome. I am very eager to tap into all your resources to kind of help me work through this perfectionist mindset and overcome it. But thanks again. Jen this has really been wonderful and I just want to thank our listeners too for your support. You can as always you can keep up with us. On past and future episodes on Twitter at Smartroute Pod we will talk to you soon. Thanks all right.